A frequent transit network specifically of B-Lines (articulated express stop only buses 10min or better frequency 7 days a week) for North Vancouver was suggested by goldenboi (see image below right).
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| goldenboi's suggested North Shore FTN. |
My feedback on what appears to be 4 B-Lines.
- East-West: Ideally it will end in Dollarton, the area is developing into a center and it is more appropriate than ever for it to finish there.
- Lions Gate: I never understood why the 240 goes to 15th rather than continuing on 13th. For a BLine it should go straight on 13th all the way to Grand Boulevard and then left all the way to Lynn Valley. Less turns = faster end to end speed. Plus it still serves the hospital with that route.
- Second Narrows to Metrotown: It should finish at CapU.
- Lonsdale - This line is not necessary. BLines are great for longer distances of travel but the problem with Lonsdale is the majority of movements are local - there are actually very few people who travel from Lynn Valley to the Quay to Downtown because the 210 runs straight downtown from Lynn Valley and is faster. At Mid-Lonsdale, the 240 also runs straight downtown and can also be faster for certain trips. Especially if the 240 is replaced by a BLine, this will make it even faster. Lonsdale deserves to be in the frequent transit network with buses every 10min or better, but I don't think it's suitable for a BLine.
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| My suggestion for specific B-Line routing on the North Shore. |
Comments
jollyburger: Are you suggesting a new bus exchange at Dollarton?
If there ever is that demand they can extend it but you still need to run buses out to Deep Cove and it makes sense to terminate those routes at Phibbs than some new Dollarton mini-exchange
If there ever is that demand they can extend it but you still need to run buses out to Deep Cove and it makes sense to terminate those routes at Phibbs than some new Dollarton mini-exchange
waves: No. Just a different termination point.
I don't disagree with you, however, just because the B-Line ends at Dollarton doesn't mean that the others have to. A new exchange is not needed. It makes more sense for the local buses to end at Phibbs. Extending the BLine to Dollarton adds at most 1min but provides a lot of value with all the businesses and new developments over there. The new Phibbs is being designed with the new BLine stop in a bus bay on the north side of Main St (so that it doesn't even have to enter the exchange, it arrives and leaves).
jollyburger: Isn't the time spent turning onto 15th negligible?
There are no delays from those turns onto 13th and 15th was always more built up (not just single family homes) which might be the reason it historically used that route.
jollyburger: The Ironworkers is unreliable and service to CapU might be impacted if it relies on a B-Line?
jollyburger: The Marine Dr B-Line is not a "destination" route, so won't a Lonsdale B-Line be fine?
Not all B-Lines are going to be UBC "destination" routes where almost is going all the way to the end. Even the new Marine B-Line will see fewer people going from Phibbs to Park Royal than more "localish" type commuters switching to another route.There are no delays from those turns onto 13th and 15th was always more built up (not just single family homes) which might be the reason it historically used that route.
waves: While small, the delay is still tangible.
Every turn has a delay, it's not a large one, but there is a delay. Not to mention the added stop signs and such. 5min could be cut from the route from continuing on 13th.
jollyburger: The Ironworkers is unreliable and service to CapU might be impacted if it relies on a B-Line?
They already switched the Cap College runs to a shorter route so it isn't dependent on buses getting stuck on the bridge.
waves: Local bus service to Cap can co-exist with a B-Line.
A Metrotown-Phibbs B-Line probably won't go without ahead without priority entrance on to the highway somehow from Hastings. With transit priority, the buses should be less likely to get stuck in bridge traffic. 10min frequency may also reduce the consequences from buses getting pushed back behind schedule. Also, just because CapU will be serviced by the B-Line doesn't mean that it can't have local bus service just as UBC sees service by the 9, 14, and 4 in addition to the 99 B-Line.
Migrant Coconut: A gondola is needed!
And there's not much room for artics at either loop anyway. What Cap really needs long-term is a short express line between it and Phibbs, upgradeable to a gondola.
waves: I agree!
If a gondola was put in place, terminating the B-Line at Phibbs would be very appropriate.
jollyburger: The Marine Dr B-Line is not a "destination" route, so won't a Lonsdale B-Line be fine?
waves: A Marine Dr B-Line is a destination route.
I disagree with the assertion that the Marine B-Line absolutely is a not a "destination" route. The big destinations are Dundarave, Ambleside, Park Royal, Capilano Mall, Quay, Brooksbank, Phibbs and Dollarton. All of these places benefit from express service. While true that not every rider will be going from Phibbs to Dundarave, it is true however that most riders will be travelling between those "local" destinations. Lonsdale does not have this characteristic because the travel patterns are truly local in a way that is more similar to the 9 than the 99.
fredinno: Isn't the 229 route already designated in the ATP for a B-Line?
Translink already designated the Lynn Valley B-line Jollyburger drew as their preferred corridor, and Lynn Valley is a designated Town Centre anyhow. Lynn Valley is hampered by lack of accessibility, hence, the B-Line. Also, connecting at Lonsdale future-proofs the line for a Skytrain 3rd crossing.
waves: Not necessarily; its designated for frequent transit which can be different from a B-Line.
Translink specified Lonsdale to Lynn Valley as a route that needed frequent transit. Remember that a B-Line is a form a frequent transit but frequent transit is not always a B-Line. Also, Lynn Valley really isn't that hampered in terms of accessibility. 228, 229, 255, 210, 227 and even the N24 all run through Lynn Valley at 30min or better frequency all day. There are, however, many scheduling and route alignment problems though:
Rapid Bus Transit is defined in the NSATP as anything that might have one or some of the following: "Dedicated right of way, separate lane or mixed with traffic, limited stop or transit priority measures. Service frequency 2 – 15 minutes.
- 229 SB turns right on to Lynn Valley road, then left onto 29th rather than continuing straight onto Fromme. Also leaves 3min to late in the afternoon to catch the Seabus.
- 255 is usually good and consistent
- 228 does lots of turns around grand boulevard and 15th that are really unnecessary
- 240 doesn't finish in Lynn Valley forcing Lynn Valley CapMall or Park Royal connections to transfer to the 255 or 228.
- Some 210s don't go all the way to Vancouver, and have no connections to Vancouver even at Phibbs until the next 210.
Run the 229/230 at 15 min frequencies staggered 7.5min apart. You could run the 229 with limited stops through CNV to provide a faster option for getting to the Quay versus 230 local service. Alternatively, you keep the 230/229 at current 15-30min frequencies, cut stops in the CNV so that they stop at 23rd/15th/13th/3rd/Quay only, and implement a new 10min local service bus from the Quay to 23rd.
Both these options would improve Lonsdale to a Rapid Bus Network but neither are a B-Line.
Tvisforme: But isn't 15th Street more central that 13th street to Central Lonsdale?
One significant advantage to 15th Street, as I understand it, is that it runs through the heart of the Central Lonsdale district. A stop on 13th would instead leave you near the southern end of where the City plans to have most of the density. At 15th, you're equidistant to either of the two supermarkets that serve that area (City Market at 17th, Whole Foods at 13th).waves: 13th and Lonsdale has more density than 15th.
The highest density in central Lonsdale is currently at 13th and Lonsdale. This is also the area that sees the highest day-lighting from buses that ascend Lonsdale Ave. In addition, the blocks aren't that long either. Walking from 17th to 13th takes 5min. In my opinion, the directness of the transit route has more advantages than making the bus do the weave onto 15th.
Tvisforme: But, higher density in the OCP is set out for 15th.
13th might be denser at the moment, but 15th is the centre of the four-block "Mixed Use Level 4B (High Density)", the highest-density zone on the Central Lonsdale OCP. It is a relatively quick walk from 17th to 13th, but if you're carrying groceries from City Market - which is much more affordable than Whole Foods - it becomes more complicated. As for the weave, it does not really matter too much; while it does add two extra turns (Keith -> Jones and Jones -> 15th) the net distance is the same on both routes. More importantly, perhaps, the existing east-west routes in Central Lonsdale are already operating on 15th.
waves: Snaking is not an efficient transit network.
The net distance may be the same, but the speed is slower with added stop signs, having to wait for traffic while turning left off of 13th, speed bumps on the west part of 15th. Also, if the route is ever upgraded to an articulated B-Line, those turns are going to become even slower and more difficult.
13th is simpler, faster and more direct for regional connections. If Lonsdale FTN is upgraded even more with buses every 10min or better, than a person can get off at 13th and they have a high likelihood of a transfer bus coming in 5min or less to get to 17th. But I also highly doubt that people from down Kieth's are that keen to get to the market on 17th vs. Walmart at Cap Mall. Other potential commuters to that particular market are basically Grand Boulevard, which is all SFH's anyways. Anyone north of the highway is going to Lynn Valley so even when the 240 is extended, I don't think the 17th Supermarket is enough of a "destination" to justify impacts to a highly important regional bus route.
While true that the existing east-west routes are on 15th now, that doesn't mean that they have to stay there, or should be there.
Vancouver's bus network encourages ridership because it avoids doing the suburban snaking. The network has proven its efficiency and reliability when the routes travel in straight lines in the block pattern. North Vancouver needs to do the same in aiming for a one-transfer grid bus network rather than a snaked network.
